3 unconventional takeaways on technology, leadership, and self-expression from Mark Zuckerberg's latest interview on Joe Rogan
Or "a few quick takes on Zuck's Joe Rogan interview that have nothing to do with hot-button political or policy commentary"
I'm coming up on 8 years in the world of jiu-jitsu and a decade of dwelling in the world of tech product management. When Mark Zuckerberg talks—specifically with the king of podcasting and one of the most important figures in the realm of MMA—I’m going to listen and listen closely.
Most of the media focus on Zuck and Meta has been on changes to Meta's approaches to content moderation and DEI. Most people I know, when asked about their thoughts on the Joe Rogan interview, in particular, primarily focused on Zuck’s dynamics with the government and his flip-flopping of opinions and policies in the last ~10 years.
While I’ve got my own points of view on the topics directly above, I’d like to dig into the three other insights that are less incendiary but uniquely provocative about Zuck’s recent statements on Rogan’s podcast. They shed a new light for me on Zuck as a person and leader in his “latest iteration” (software pun intended).
I hope you’ll enjoy reading this one. Comments on this post or about the Zuck-Rogan interview as a whole are welcome and encouraged.
1. Zuck's personal stakes to solve Meta's biggest challenges are only getting higher
Zuckerberg's role as a father of three young daughters came up way more often than I expected on Rogan’s podcast.
Let me begin by saying that I don’t feel comfortable sounding off on whether Zuck’s a good dad—it’s hard to say and I’d rather stick with my researched takes on whether Zuck’s good at jiu-jitsu.
That said, the multiple, origanic mentions of fatherhood on Rogan give me reason to believe that Zuck being a dad has forced him to confront the impact of social media on society in a whole new way.
His own kids are growing up in a world shaped by the tech platforms he's created and owns. As his girls become teens, Zuckerberg has undeniable skin in the game when it comes to addressing issues that are likely to affect his daughters—and for which Meta has been rightfully investigated and critiqued in the past.
Zuck mentions to Rogan that the girls ask "what daddy does for a living," and it's only a matter of time before he has to tell them that it's more than owning a ranch in Hawaii with a suspiciously large underground bunker.
There’s no shortage of research on the negative impacts of social media on adolescent women (take this piece for example).
It’s a no brainer that social media can be addictive, toxic, and bad for the brain and self-esteem. How Zuck chooses to “thread the needle” on having his girls see the results of his technology and not have them get sucked into the negatives of the metaverse must be on his mind.
Unless Zuck fully stonewalls his girls having access to Meta, being a dad of eventual teenagers gives a new sense of urgency and responsibility to his work.
If you’re one of the Product Managers at Meta working on parenting permissions and teen tools, I don’t envy you. It’s hard to solve for parents and kids as software users on a single product—and kids will always find a way to undermine age restrictions.
Given the statements on Rogan’s podcast, if you’re PM-ing any of this stuff, you better get your features and metrics right, because there’s good reason to believe that “Daddy Zuck” will probably be in your performance review.
2. The value of an entrepreneurial board
At first, Zuckerberg's interest in having UFC President Dana White on Meta's board seemed very bro-y and chummy to me.
I initially wrote it off as “blue belt energy,” the more expensive and corporate version of “putting BJJ in the instagram handle,” a common phenomenon among newer, eager BJJ practitioners. Mere mortals who get swept up into jiu-jitsu-land put “BJJ” in their handle and turn jiu-jitsu into a substitute for a personality. Zuck puts the king of combat sports on his board!
On Rogan’s podcast, Zuck explains that bringing Dana White is consistent with his overall desire about bringing “builders” onto the board.
Much as I’d love to throw shade on Zuck indexing on the “bro” in “brogrammer,” the rationale for bringing Dana onboard makes sense. Dana successfully grew and scaled the UFC. He grew the UFC's revenue from $4.6 million to over $1 billion between 2001 and 2021, and the promotion continues to grow year over year, reported at 1.3 billion in 2023. Interest in MMA and BJJ has exploded in the last twenty years.
Dana’s got the entrepreneurial drive and scaling experience that could be valuable to Meta's board—or at least is valued by Zuckerberg and is more interesting than the usual Silicon Valley fare of stodgy or allegedly creepy leaders.
Lastly, from a corporate strategy perspective, it’s also worth noting that anything in the realm of live events = eyeballs on a platform. Having someone like Dana White informing the five-year product roadmap could pay off for Meta’s revenue and engagement. Few people are so seasoned and successful as Dana in the business of growing and scaling live events.
3. Jiu-jitsu as authentic self-expression
When people say that jiu-jitsu is “a way to express themselves,” more often than not, I want to roll my eyes.
Sure, you can’t spell "Martial Arts" without "Art,” and art is about expression, but with only a handful of exceptions, I find it cringeworthy when people say that jiu-jitsu is their form of “self-expression.”
I will also fully admit that I’ve probably said this exact sentence about my own relationship with BJJ in the past.
That said, when Zuck says jiu-jitsu is a way for him to “express himself”, I’m inclined to believe it. Here’s why:
A guy like him, in his kind of media spotlight and under constant scrutiny, has to be “buttoned up” at best and “legally unassailable” at worst at all hours of the day.
I don’t pity him for his circumstances—after all, Zuck built a “free expression” platform responsible for giving anyone with an internet connection the power to be a pundit, for better or worse.
Zuck can't afford to be overly macho, aggressive, and “all the things that are acceptable in a combat sports context” in a corporate leadership context. In a corporate leadership role, diplomacy and polish usually have to prevail over the id-inclined urges.
Without getting into a polemic on masculinity and definitions of “toxic masculinity,” I’ll leave it at this: jiu-jitsu almost certainly provides Zuck with an outlet for authentic self-expression that is unavailable, unacceptable, or hard to come by for him in his usual life.
When everything he says and does in the spotlight is subject to instant criticism, for a guy like Zuck, an MMA gym and combat sports practice becomes—unironically—a “safe space” for “self-expression.”
Closing out
Love him or hate him, “red pill” or “blue pill”, Zuck’s here to stay.
If nothing else, I think jiu-jitsu is good for Mark Zuckerberg, appreciate how his practice of it grows the exposure to the sport, and am selfishly happy to hear it being discussed on Joe Rogan alongside big tech issues and opportunities.
That said, I’m still not convinced he is particularly good at jiu-jitsu. He’s probably better than Demi Lovato, but a blue belt is still a blue belt, ladies and gents!
Entertaining and thought provoking Erica! Becoming a parent definitely can shift perspective. I haven’t listened to the podcast yet but hoping to at some point
How do you reconcile Zuckerberg having skin in the game and his alleged authenticity when discussing his daughters with his recent right wing sycophancy in dismantling any fact checking / moderation on his platform? The guy has been media trained for over a decade. I don't think you can take anything he says at face value while he's on the world's most popular podcast.