Zuck vs Musk: Match of the Year?
Extensive thoughts on Mark Zuckerberg's adventures in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ), his technical acumen, and his potential MMA matchup with Elon Musk from someone who actually trains BJJ
My “Credentials” To Write About This
Before I dig in, a little background about me explaining why I feel like I have some authority to sound off on this particular piece of pop culture:
I’m decently serious about Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ)
I’ve trained jiu-jitsu since 2017 in a consistent, committed way: five days a week while working a nine-to-five job for most of the last six years.
I’ve competed in over forty tournaments, ranging from small, local ones to massive, international ones—and I have some hardware to prove it.
I’m a brown belt, one rank below black belt.
Having trained in various gyms and routinely taking beatings from pre-teens and teens who kick my ass, I know that belts are only so meaningful. However, for the purposes of this conversation, I am inclined to “pull rank” in this discussion to reinforce that I currently have more expertise in jiu-jitsu than Musk, Zuck, and any of the journalists I’ve seen cover the topic of Zuck’s training so far.
I’ve trained BJJ under legitimate teachers
I started my training in South Boston under John Clarke, owner of Broadway Jiu-Jitsu and longtime presence in the New England combat sports community.
I now live in Metro Atlanta and train under Bruno Frazatto, one of the great featherweights of his generation–a generation that included Rubens Charles and Rafael Mendes, two hall of famers in the sport.
I’ve staked some portion of my professional career for training and writing seriously about BJJ
In 2021-2022, I took a sabbatical from my career in the technology industry to focus on jiu-jitsu. I spent a year traveling the country, training and competing in jiu-jitsu full time, and camping with some of the top teams and coaches across the United States, including Rafael Lovato Jr. and André Galvão.
I’m writing a book about my year on the road spent learning what it takes to become a jiu-jitsu world champion, and I write about the world of professional jiu-jitsu for leading grappling media outlet, FloGrappling. Here’s a link to a favorite recent piece for Flo.
I, like Mark Zuckerberg, in his BJJ Tour gi match, did not get the tap off of this armbar attempt. Still, it’s a great action shot. Credits: Giselle Villaseñor Photography
Why I Care About This Story
As jiu-jitsu continues to grow, enters the mainstream in earnest, and gets increasing amounts of news coverage, I think it’s important for the voices of people who actually train to partake in the conversation and add nuance and accuracy. Social media is rife with bad information, whether it’s devoid of context, prioritizes sensationalism over insight, or is just plain wrong. Traditional journalism is no different, but is supposed to have some standard of research and accuracy or, at minimum, an unbiased rendition of events. (At least it used to.)
The biggest beef I have with traditional journalists who have been covering Zuckerberg’s journey into combat sports is that they have tended to over-index their focus on a few things:
His gold- and silver-medal-winning performances at a local Silicon Valley tournament in May (USA Today, ESPN)
Whether he got choked out in the gi match he lost at that Silicon Valley tournament (VICE, SB Nation The Daily Beast, The New York Times, NPR)
His speculative cage match against Elon Musk, which started with a tweet of “send me location,” but is increasingly becoming real.1
Should you choose to read on, you’ll find some thoughts about Zuck’s newfound passion for BJJ, whether I think Elon can beat him in an MMA fight, the culture of the sport and of celebrity BJJ, and more from BJJ practitioner who dwells at the crossroads of tech and training—not unlike Zuck himself.
Personal Impressions of Zuck
On “The Joe Rogan Experience” in August 2022
When I first listened to Zuckerberg’s episode on Joe Rogan, I found it immensely relatable. He picked up BJJ in the pandemic and had a moment of “where was this my whole life?” that so many white belts experience–myself included. I felt particular kinship with Zuck’s reflections on how jiu-jitsu training helped him be better at his job and at taking on the challenges and responsibilities of the rest of his life: that’s probably the reason I’ve stuck with training as long as I have.
I discovered BJJ when I was struggling and miserable at my first tech job in 2017. For that reason, tech and BJJ are inextricable for when and how they came into my life: being forced to urgently solve problems on the mat so as to not get choked out or break a bone was more real, more exciting, more alive than addressing the latest Slack message from a complaining stakeholder. The calmer I could become in the stressful situations of training, the more composure I brought into the “escalation” and “crisis” scenarios of my corporate work.
Overall, I found Zuck’s curiosity, excitement, and humility with regard to the sport both believable and humanizing throughout the Rogan interview–all the more so in light of Zuck’s reputation for being robotic.
The most BJJ-focused part of the Rogan interview is clipped below (just over nine minutes):
In Spring 2023
I find the recent buzz around Zuck and jiu-jitsu less enjoyable and more problematic than that first conversation he had with Rogan for the following reasons:
The Reddit post linked above says it all, but if I had to describe the tropes in my own words, they amount to the following point: it’s what happens when a passion for a hobby becomes a substitute for a personality.
People who know little about jiu-jitsu who are covering Zuck’s foray into “the gentle art” aren’t able to contextualize his training and competition expertise.
I respect Zuck’s willingness to train and to challenge himself in learning and competing in jiu-jitsu–especially given who he is and all the other things he could be doing with his free time. Competing takes guts. Period. Full stop. Win or lose. I don’t take issue with Zuck celebrating the milestone of his first competition, but it needs to be kept in perspective.
Where I take issue is with the professional media folks covering this milestone: there’s no meaningful acknowledgment of the scale, audience, and accomplishment of winning a BJJ Tour (in which Zuck, a tech mogul, participated after training for a year and change) relative to winning a World Championship (which some athletes spend their entire lives training to win, in many cases overcoming extreme hardship to do so).
The jiu-jitsu community is eager to welcome Zuck in with Instagram partnerships and reels and reactions on his posts–either out of genuine hospitality or pure clout-chasing–but in doing so, might be robbing Zuck of something he might looking for in his experience with jiu-jitsu.
One of the draws of jiu-jitsu is a sense of meritocracy and fairness on the mat: that someone who trains hard can both physically and mentally outmatch an opponent, and that who you are off the mat doesn’t matter when you’re on it.
If I were Zuck, I’d constantly have to wonder: “Am I winning because I am actually better or am I winning because people know who I am and are letting me win for (real or imagined) fear of consequences off the mat?”
Now that we’ve talked around Zuck’s jiu-jitsu, let’s talk about Zuck’s jiu-jitsu.
Uncommon Answers to Common Questions About Mark Zuckerberg’s Jiu-Jitsu
Does Zuck know any jiu-jitsu?
Unequivocally, yes. His coach is David Camarillo, who is completely legit as a practitioner, coach, and teacher–not to mention as a stunt coordinator and fight choreographer (he trained Keanu Reeves for John Wick). Easily one of the OGs when it comes to American black belts, Camarillo is the real deal with the track records, matchups against legends like Marcelo Garcia, and a few instructionals to prove it.
I'm also willing to believe Dave Camarillo's compliments on Zuck being among his best students because people who are at that level of corporate business and success have to rigorously prioritize their free time. I can’t imagine Zuck half-assing anything with whatever spare headspace he has outside of the latest Meta business review, being a father of three, etc. He also has a proven reputation for challenging himself to learn and try new things, and BJJ is no different.
Is Zuck actually good at jiu-jitsu?
“Good” is a hard term to assess. He has a good coach and is probably “good” for a white belt, but the white belt is the bottom of the pecking order in adult ranks.2 Also, “good at jiu-jitsu” is a relative term. To explain further:
Someone can be good at one technique, but to say someone is “good at jiu-jitsu” for being good at one technique might be a bit of overstatement.
Someone can be “good at jiu-jitsu” in their training room but not good in competition.
Someone can be “good at jiu-jitsu”, and still get bodied by a wrestler, a judoka, or a sambo practitioner.
Someone can have the objective markers of being “good at jiu-jitsu” (e.g. has a black belt, has trained consistently for over a decade, can win a competition) and get dusted by a fellow black belt or even by a lower-ranked practitioner.3
Put simply,“there’s levels to this sh--.”
What Actually Happened In Zuck’s Matches?
Overall Results
Zuck went 1-1 in his four-man gi division (Master 2, White Belt, Feather) and went 2-1 in his no gi division (Master 1, No Gi, Feather), winning best 2 out of 3 against the same opponent. The brackets are linked here and screenshots of brackets are directly below.4
Breakdown + Insights From Zuck’s Gi Division
I can’t find decent footage from Zuck’s first match in the gi, but Zuck must have won it because there’s this picture circulating the internet with the ref raising his hand. If the bracket is accurate, his first opponent was Nevin Long:
This match—whatever happened in it—must have been less contentious than his finals match against Jeff Ibrahim (linked here).
Depending on what sources you believe, he either lost to Ibrahim in the finals by submission (Ezekiel choke in his closed guard) or it was a 0-0 draw. You can read the ref’s comments here.
Observations of his gi game
I don’t have a strong point of view on Zuck in the gi because there isn’t a ton of match footage. Technically speaking, all I can tell you is that Zuck is comfortable in the closed guard and he really wants to land an armbar (which makes sense–it’s one of Dave Camarillo’s signatures).
Breakdown + Insights From Zuck’s No Gi Division
I can’t find complete footage from the first match, but have the partial footage below, along with full footage from the second and third match. Let’s break things down:
Match One: Zuck wins by score, but the final score is unclear because this is partial footage and the view of the scoreboard is fuzzy in the video. Zuck goes for a double leg at 0:25, his opponent gets him in a guillotine, and when Zuck escapes the guillotine at 0:58, he gets two points. He almost gets armbarred around 1:50, but successfully defends the sub, scrambles, and concludes the match in quarter mount. At minimum, Zuck scored 2 points in the match.
Match Two: Zuck loses by score, 2-5. His opponent gets two takedown points at the 0:50 mark and three points for the guard pass around the 2:29 mark. Zuck gets two points on the board after attempting a double leg and escaping his opponent’s guillotine attempt (time stamps: 3:50-4:30).
Match Three: Zuck wins by score, likely 6-0 if I have it right. He gets a hip bump sweep into mount at the ~3:38 mark for two and four points, respectively.
Observations of his no gi game
Zuck shows some good fundamental understanding of inside control while trying to wrestle on the feet. On the ground, his guard retention looks better in his no gi match than it does in his gi match. He’s certainly aggressive: shooting for single and double leg takedowns, and there’s even a moment where he looks like he’s trying to get a bite on the legs.
The big thing Zuck needs to fix he is watching his head positioning on his takedown attempts: he ends up with his head in a guillotine attempt more than once, and a more skilled opponent would have finished him from that spot. But hey, it’s a white belt division—it’s not ADCC.
Why I don’t trust the other “footage” of Zuck on the internet to evaluate his BJJ
Zuck’s competition footage is better than his Instagram training footage to objectively evaluate his BJJ for the following reasons: competition footage is harder to stage and people are less likely to “play nice” in a competitive setting.
Zuck’s recent videos with renowned BJJ athlete Mikey Musumeci and podcaster Lex Fridman are fun and entertaining, but shouldn’t be considered serious proof points of Zuck’s technical abilities, because people in jiu-jitsu–hobbyists and experts alike–are notorious for staging training sequences for Instagram likes.
Moreover, it’s not in the interests of Musumeci (a 4x Black Belt World Champ in the gi, ONE Championship Title Holder, among other accolades) and Fridman (an influential podcaster with black belts in BJJ and judo) to make Zuck look bad, feel bad, or be anything other than a chummy drilling partner to him.5 Neither Mikey nor Lex seems like the type to mercilessly beat up on a white belt, and in the spirit of fun, they’re not going to resist Zuck’s single leg takedown attempt or hold out on the choke. They’re going to let him work.
Even putting aside the fact that Zuck is training with two very experienced practitioners, Zuck looking smooth in the videos is to be expected: why would he share a video of him looking like trash and getting smashed? On Instagram in general—and especially in jiu-jitsu Instagram culture—people are far more inclined to showcase their highlight reel moments or share a well-rehearsed and choreographed sequence than to do a “show and tell” about failures, their loss columns, or their “work-in-progress” moments.
In the future, I’ll be impressed if Zuck shares the full footage of his matches —win or lose—instead of just the stills. The photograph below of him locking a guillotine on his opponent is a good picture, but in the context of the match, he gets taken down and gives up two points shortly afterward. Like a lot of social media, it doesn’t represent the full reality in context.
How good did Zuck have to be to medal in the competition he did?
In a sentence, he had to be “good for a white belt.”
If Zuck started training for a year or so before his interview with Rogan, he probably had over a year-and-a-half of experience by the time he did BJJ Tour. I’ve seen white belts do tournaments with three months of experience and white belts do tournaments with four years of on-and-off experience. Time training does not always translate into being good or being guaranteed to win, but my guess is he had been training longer, with more focus, and more consistency than the average white belt (across all age groups) at that tournament. Especially at white belt, the best person doesn’t necessarily win. Someone can get away with being more athletic, with having some previous grappling experience (e.g. high school wrestlers), or by doing some dumb stuff to win.
What’s worth remembering is that the news stories talking about the two medals Zuck earned in competition are from a small local tournament. Speaking as someone who has competed in a decent number of tournaments and follows the pro competition scene, not all competitions are necessarily or equivalently competitive or indicative of skill.
Articles like this one from CNN don't really give a sense of the scale of the tournament in the broader landscape of competitive jiu-jitsu: BJJ Tour isn’t the kind of tournament that has people flying in from far and wide to participate or that has stacked brackets at the Master 1 (under age 35) and Master 2 (under age 40) divisions. That’s not to say there aren’t killers who might roll up or throw their hat in the ring to a high school gymnasium in NorCal, but you’re not attracting the same talent pool as what you’d might find at some of the IBJJF Opens or ADCC Opens, which tend to draw a more competitive crowd.
Returning to the earlier comment of “there’s levels to this 💩,” Zuck’s gold medal run in a White Belt No Gi Masters 1 division at a local tournament in Silicon Valley is on a different playing field from, for example, Jansen Gomes’ gold medal run in the Adult Middleweight Black Belt division at the 2023 IBJJF World Championships with four matches to gold and Tainan Dalpra in the Finals.6
To summarize shade on this:
No shade on on the value of Zuck’s no gi gold—he had to genuinely earn it, best two out of three, and you can only fight the people who sign up and show up in front of you.
No shade on BJJ Tour: it is not the World Championships, it is not trying to be, and local tournaments are fun, worthwhile events for building experience.
Shade on the media outlets covering these stories for making Zuck seem like a god of grappling because they either don’t realize or care to acknowledge that levels to the game exist.
I’m personally hoping Zuck chooses to challenge himself one step higher from BJJ Tour and does IBJJF Jiu-Jitsu Con Novice in Vegas in September—it might be the hardest white belt tournament on the calendar after Pan Ams. If he dominates a division with three or more matches to gold, I’ll consider him both “King of the Nerds” and “King of the White Belts.”
In the meantime, he appears to be the “King of Violence” based on the comments he’s gotten on his Facebook post:
Is Zuck serious about jiu-jitsu?
He is right now, but it’s a little too soon to tell if he will be serious for the long haul. Every white belt gets bitten by the bug and is really enthusiastic and hyped up on the sport for a while.
The true test of Zuck’s commitment will be when he gets his blue belt. When “the blue belt blues” set in, people stop treating you with kid gloves, your sense of improvement in training dwindles, aches and pains begin, and the black belt road feels more untenable.
One year and change in, it’s hard to say if Zuck is in BJJ for the long haul, but the man clearly stays the course when he’s set his mind to something and is willing to be humbled in his professional life, so provided nothing else seizes his interest as strongly, he is probably in it for a while.
Who Would Win In A Fight: Zuck or Elon?
Take all the below with a grain of salt as a person who primarily trains BJJ and watches UFC but does not train MMA.
If Elon did zero physical training or preparation, Zuck would likely beat him in a combat sports rule set, BJJ or broader MMA.
I couldn’t find much information on Musk’s physical fitness routine beyond flexing his muscles from 💩-posting on Twitter. Zuck seems to be working grip strength in training, whereas most of the grip strength Musk is exerting seems to be on his company or on the keyboard.
If Musk had been a childhood gymnast, a one-season wrestler, or even a regular weightlifter, my point of view might be different for how Musk would perform if put in a cage with Zuck tomorrow.
If Musk has time to prepare for the fight and does not agree to a brutal catchweight, his odds improve against Zuck in an MMA ruleset
If Musk does a proper camp for a fight against Zuck, especially if it were in an MMA ruleset, I think the conversation changes. Musk is older, but is heavier and taller. Zuck’s BJJ would be hard for Musk to eclipse over the course of, say, a twelve-week camp, unless he fully paused his life to be all about it (and even then).
However, based on Lex’s accounts of training with Elon, he’s not the slouch or the novice that the internet haters want him to be:
Assuming Elon did not have to cut a ton of weight, hired a good coach and learned enough striking to shut down Zuck’s jiu-jitsu and get one good haymaker in, his size and strength advantage could be enough to give him a knockout punch to win.
If Musk does take the MMA fight with Zuck, his path to victory would require adopting a strategy in which he doesn’t let Zuck take him down, doesn’t give him any opportunities to utilize his jiu-jitsu, and doesn’t let Zuck–as the smaller and more agile of the two–outstrike him by the numbers to win by judges’ score. Zuck doesn’t need to knock out Elon to win–he can outpoint him by getting more shots in.
It’s worth noting that Musk could legitimately adopt his “walrus move.” Knowing enough to not let an opponent move—provided you stay active enough to not get penalized and disqualified for stalling:
A Worthy Reminder: Famous People Doing BJJ Is Nothing New
Putting the Zuck-Elon zeitgeist in perspective: celebrities training BJJ is not a new thing.
When I started training in 2017, Russell Brand, Demi Lovato, and Ashton Kutcher were among the bigger names that come to mind who are outspoken about training. From what I can tell, they’ve stayed consistent, too. Of all the jiu-jitsu content I can find on the three of them, I most enjoy Brand’s video about his journey in jiu-jitsu and promotion to purple belt.
Keanu Reeves is more of a reserved character in his practice of BJJ: less outspoken about it, letting his action sequences in John Wick do the talking.
Right now, in 2023, I’d say Tom Hardy and Mario Lopez are the best known and most serious celebrity men training BJJ: Hardy just got his purple belt and Lopez’s Phoenix Open IBJJF match at blue belt had an enviably smooth takedown sequence.
For a vintage, in memoriam pick: Anthony Bourdain was very passionate about training jiu-jitsu. I have a special spot in my heart for his performance at the IBJJF New York Open (linked below).
After the movie and TV stars, the public figures who are most vocal about training jiu-jitsu are certain culturally-influential entertainers and podcasters. The most famous one, bar none, is Joe Rogan, likely followed by Lex Fridman. Both speak frequently about their own martial arts training on their podcasts and have interviewed a non-negligible number of professional fighters. Rogan appeals to the everyman while Fridman appeals to those with a nerdier, scientific bend–or those who want to seem a little more erudite.
Perhaps Zuck training jiu-jitsu will usher in a new category of “celebrity jiu-jitsu” or celebrity-adjacent jiu-jitsu: “The Tech Mogul.” Only time will tell.
Final Thoughts: Who Really Wins?
Closing out: whether a Zuck-Elon fight happens…
In a Vegas Octagon next year, since UFC’s Dana White seems keen on the financial opportunity
At “Fight Circus in Thailand where no weight cut or skill is necessary :)”8
As a backyard billionaire brawl on STREETBEEFS9
…let’s keep it in perspective:
Stars stepping onto the mat is not a new thing and the real winners in this situation are Musk, Zuck, and the media for stealing our attention with these men’s stories and antics.
Closing out, if nothing else is true about this match, it’s this: there’s no question it’ll be the match of the year.
If you, like Zuck, are going to call someone out for a fight by quoting a fellow BJJ white belt, let that BJJ white belt be Khabib Nurmagumedov, one of the greatest MMA fighters of our time.
There are five adult ranks in BJJ: white, blue, purple, brown, and black—black being the highest.
To draw a half-comparison between Zuck’s BJJ world and his professional world: much like being the CEO of a three-person startup isn’t the same as being a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, not all black belts are held to the same standards, have endured the same rigor of training, or are of the same quality.
Honestly, Zuck should use his newfound BJJ interest to invest some Meta money into improving the web experience and software for BJJ Tour. It looks older than MySpace and is eons behind Smoothcomp.
I have met Lex, rolled with him when he still trained and lived in Boston and when I was a white belt. He was nice to me in training and, unsolicited, was complimentary about a piece of my writing. This is the best anecdotal evidence I have of him likely not being an ass to white belt Zuck.
Dalpra is the closest thing that contemporary gi jiu-jitsu has to a young Michael Jordan figure. The 2023 Worlds final, where Jansen won, was a huge upset.
As a friend noted with wonderful irony: “faux gladiators are such a nice touch…BILLIONAIRES potentially pretending to be slaves lollll.”
An excerpt of what one of my former colleagues suggested when asked his thoughts on the matchup.
I love the idea of Streetbeefs hosting this fight if for no other reason that it would bring a third social media company into the mix: YouTube.
Love this. You nailed the key word for Zuck somewhere in there - “humble”
Nice!
Very entertaining read! Future match and people breakdowns column? Haha